THE ROBERT W. WHITAKER ARCHIVE

PEOPLE WHO LIVE HISTORY DONT REMEMBER IT | 2011-12-12

I really like historical fiction.

It is more accurate than regular history because a book on history is read by a few thousand bored academics while those of fiction have hundreds of thousands of history fanatics, and since the development of Google, they are really stinging.

The kind of crap you find in the average history book would be cut to shreds by hisfic fans.

You would think that it is critical to get history while the generation being spoken of is still living. As one who lived through seventy years of it, I assure you that it is NOT the case.

A I have pointed out, the story of World War II as told by the young guys who fought it in the early fifties, bears not the slightest relationship to what the old guys say now.

They say that in politics, a year is forever. The same is true in terms of recent history. No one but me remembers the Permanent Meat Shortage, and that is just one example. If a G.I. talked about being on the European Front, he invariably said that his real enemy was not the Germans, but the cold and the rain and other misery.

You will never hear that from any of the Weakest Generation today. Every one of them was John Wayne. Every one of them liberated Death Camps.

In a real war you almost never see the enemy.

But these observations about the Weakest Generation apply to every age.

So it makes very little difference whether the generation that lived it is alive or dead, because they will believe everything everybody else believes.

This is a realization I came to in my early teens. I would be talking to people who were obsessed with something that was big deal and they absolutely forgot it when I brought it up a month or so later. Now this is routine for me. But back then, before the Twilight Zone, it was the Twilight Zone.

As a new teen, I could not believe that the person I was talking couldn't even remember what was considered a national event, much less his own fanaticism about one side of it.

It is literally true that the Weakest Generation was not actually IN the War they fought. But the lesson is MUCH more general.

Very, very few people remember even their own reactions to the history they lived through.

I got paid for my predictions. I made accurate predictions because of the fact that one learns the future from what has already happened. My secret was that I remembered what REALLY happened.

But to do that you have to remember what happened.

COMMENTS (23)

#1 Epiphany | 2011-12-12 06:15

It is really weird how patriotic Americans get about the Second World War! I wonder why they do not feel the same type of patriotism about the conflict in Vietnam? Just wondering!

#2 Epiphany | 2011-12-12 06:51

Americans do not usually talk about it, but the Soviet Communists committed many of the same type of war crimes and crimes against humanity that we usually associate with the German Nazis, especially during The Second World War. None seem to take note of that, nor consider the irony of it all!

#3 Genseric | 2011-12-12 09:41

Maybe it's because they don't remember. That would be something one would TRY to forget.

#4 Epiphany | 2011-12-12 10:03

Knowledge of Soviet sins, and the things done in the name of Communism, changes everything. Once one does, and once one realizes the eerie similarity to Nazi sins, one cannot see the world the same way again. One can never buy that drivel about Communism and Nazism being somehow opposites of each other!

#5 Genseric | 2011-12-12 10:10

History is one of those subjective truths. Largely, it only rings true for the person who holds it.

But, there are some things which simply cannot be forgotten (or remembered). Or, at least, there are those of us who will NEVER let them forget certain events. And they absolutely HATE us for it.

When we look back at World War 2, many think "How could a man choose to do so much wrong? How could a man want to kill so many Innocent People?" Well, the truth is everyone knows that there has been only ONE innocent man to ever walk the face of the Earth. Those Innocent People chose to torture and crucify Him.

To hold historical truth is realizing there is no such thing as innocence. The truth about this history is that those who lived it are all too HAPPY they don't remember it. It's too painful.

Nie wieder.

#6 BGLass | 2011-12-12 10:35

Could not feel more sorry for young people lost in the strange interior of grownups. They seemed to lie, to forget, to lack any thought process to connect dots between things.

As a young lass, I didn't realize "feminism" was a "movement" or that any of the hate directed at ME, for being white, girl, whatever, was a part of POLITICAL program! I thought they just hated ME, personally! lol Like, when those commercials about "self-sterilization" came out, and how great it is! Now that's hate!

But how do kids TAKE IT now?

I'm just GLAD we didn't have the daily child abductions and daily Mommy-murders-her-kid stories, along with child Sex abuse daily back then. I cannot imagine the level of trauma. If I was 8, I would not go out of the house! Certainly, I would not play sports where you would meet a coach!!! Or go to church!!!

All day, the kids are SITTING RIGHT THERE, watching and listening. Now, this is a reason are infantalized. Grownups act as if the world being presented to them --like daily child abductions and sex abuses and murderous mommies and psychos--- would not affect them in the least-- AS IF THEY ARE NOT EVEN THERE! Now, that's some magical thinking on the part of grownups, lol!

Anyway, the military are HEROES. And you better toe the line on that. They are great saviors, just like Jesus, and always at the gate of a Death Camp.

Reality (what you really remember that has nothing to do with the sanctioned Image) can make a person seem so SMALL. Because you were never really at the big death camp.

The person who can tell real Oral History is also saying they have overcome the allure of living in an Image, and worse, in someone else's image. It's a great power.

To say, 'Yes, we hear of that a great deal, but that was NOT my experience at all." What I really recall about it was not that, but this... Yes, I saw depictions of my sort of person in movies, but in that place really...

It's easy for youth to get bogged down in trying to understand why Grownups and other heroes choose Life in the Image; the realities of this should be summed up for them very quickly, so they just move beyond those questions with great speed, to live their lives.

#7 BGLass | 2011-12-12 10:47

The whole question of "adulthood" --in a sense-- is HOW REAL have you managed to be?

This is a subtext of all grownup conversations.

Some are mired in the Image to such a degree that they do not even realize there are other grownups out there trying to say something a little more real.

EG-- I was trying to talk about an aspect of history, the cause-and-effect reality of it, and now some very ancient history was impacting the present.

The listener could not understand why I was 'stuck on that part of history"--- COULD NOT GET that I wasn't at all, but was trying to talk about HOW HISTORY WORKS (as far as I understand to this point).

He was a great Hero. Any big picture thinking will be lost on them.

#8 BGLass | 2011-12-12 11:13

Idk, Genseric---

Seems to me there are many Innocents and they are reborn in every generation. They are not God, of course, but they are innocent. They are born (into a world of lies) with ears that HEAR what is going on.

That's why, imo, in the Bible all that stuff about returning to the smallness of one's youth. Many seem to take on the Images (many are presented to us)-- "the hero," or "the savior," or "the ingenue," or the "virgin-whore" like all the Madonnas, or Brittanys, or whoever, all these roles to play.

Those can be thrown off again. Some have a determination to be real. After everything that happens, they will ask themselves more than once, is that REALLY what I recall? is that REALLY what I think? (Or am I repeating some saying, or image, something I was tested on in school?, etc.)

The books published as the gnostic gospels talk a lot about this idea of Images. Living in the Images one is given. Like, Great Soldier.

Children are presented with many grownups living in their narrative, their mythology, their "role." Often they try to say this has nothing to do with the reality they are experiencing.

I believe in the relative "innocence" of childhood. --Not to say they aren't capable of "badness," lol. But the are born, imo, into Life outside the Image.

Sin causes people to live in the Big Lie, in the Images, etc. (if that makes any sense). Ego, various weaknesses, need to be accepted, cowardliness, fear of harm, poverty, etc, etc.

That's what turns people into "Great Soldier."

#9 Genseric | 2011-12-12 15:54

Innocence to me, is the lack of the ability to do wrong. The incapability to do evil.

I still believe that in any man therein lies an inherent potential. A potential to do good or evil. Children are some of the meanest, most evil little vermin you could ever meet. A scarcity of food? Watch out! You might lose a finger. MANY of them are not, it's just an observation that children can get MEAN, and very early in life.

Those of us who gravitate heavily toward good could NEVER say that we are completely innocent; devoid of evil. At least I don't believe so.

This is central to the point that Respectables and Liberals make about naziswhowanttokillsixmillionjews. They would HAVE YOU believe the chosen ones were <i>actually</i> innocent. What a crock!

Be just and fear not. For we fight for freedom. Freedom of OUR people from oppression and genocide.

A man of many vices,

Genseric

P.S. It's not about The Image. It's just a matter of WHICH image you choose as your dominant one.

#10 Simmons | 2011-12-12 11:28

As Dave is fond of saying, "any old lie will do."

Or, "this way to utopia, don't go this way you get the whip."

Or, "why does utopia always require a prerequisite genocide?"

#11 BGLass | 2011-12-12 11:45

Of course, there is nothing more damning than a look of keen awareness in one's eyes. For many, nothing more uncomfortable than really being looked at, or asked followup questions, like ok, but WHAT KIND of Indian were you (since 1965, you meet a lot of INdians)? What tribe? Only one tribe? Are you sure? Do you have any papers of proof? Etc.

#12 shari | 2011-12-12 14:12

The truth, especially now, I think, does not immediately set free. First, it pulls your feet out from under and knocks you down. But before you get backup, look around. Don't just get up and continue on or something worse will happen.

#13 Harumphty Dumpty | 2011-12-12 16:35

@ shari: Winston Churchhill (not that I'm keen to build his legend) was quoted as saying the same thing: that men often stumble across the truth, but usually manage to pick themselves up and continue on as if nothing had happened.

(Some might consider Churchill himself a good example of that. As a side topic for anyone interested, consider Churchill's very critical 1920 full front page article in the Illustrated Sunday Herald, "Zionism versus Bolshevism: A struggle for the soul of the Jewish people," and his behavior as captured in the title of Martin Gilbert's book, "Churchill and the Jews: A Lifelong Friendship."

Facsimiles of that Sunday Herald front page can be found online, and excerpts of it can be found on p 38 of Martin Gilbert's book (Gilbert is a prominent establishment historian) that I've linked below:

"'It may well be,' Churchill wrote, 'that this same astounding race may at the present time be in the actual process of producing another system of morals and philosophy, as malevolent as Christianity was benevolent, which, if not arrested, would shatter irretrievably all that Christianity has rendered possible.' This was Bolshevism. 'It would almost seem,' Churchill commented, 'as if the gospel of Christ and the gospel of Anti christ were destined to originate among the same people; and that this mystic mysterious race had been chosen for the supreme manifestations, both of the divine and the diabolical.'")

http://tinyurl.com/35bhyqu

#14 Harumphty Dumpty | 2011-12-12 16:53

"...the person I was talking couldn't even remember what was considered a national event, much less his own fanaticism about one side of it."

I hate to say it, but that's exactly how my own mind "works." How I envy people for whom the events of the world are solid stuff, and what happened two months ago is still visible to them from the window of their mind.

I don't think it's just a matter of intelligence, at least up to a point. I guess if one is intelligent enough to see some of the entire web of reality instead of just seeing reality as composed of unconnected events, that helps weave things together into a memorable whole.

But it's more than just intelligence. It's some natural contact with the world that most of us don't feel as deeply.

Maybe it's growing up in a home in which conversation about the affairs of the world are a natural part of one's waking life. In my home, what dinner conversation there was was likely to be about last night's program of "What's My Line" or "I've Got a Secret." I never formed a natural connection to the world out there.

But it's not just one's raising. I formed a strong connection to math, and I don't know where that came from.

Most things are a mystery IMO. But probably that's just because I can't remember what happened yesterday! Sigh.

#15 Genseric | 2011-12-13 09:01

"I formed a strong connection to math, and I don't know where that came from."

It's the universal language ingrained in nature, ingrained in EVERYTHING. From Archimedes to the Fibonacci sequence.

Good choice.

#16 Harumphty Dumpty | 2011-12-12 17:23

Harry Turtledove is an historian who obviously loves history (I've only read his fiction) and is a very popular writer of sci/fi alternative history.

In his enjoyable "Guns of the South," apartheid era (okay, one must flex a bit...Turtledove is of the establishment after all) South African whites invent a time machine and carry automatic weapons back to the Southern Confederacy, and Robert E. Lee leads us to victory. The paperback had a delightful cover of Robert E. Lee cradling an automatic rifle at the ready!

Turtledove has a series of such novels about WWII, in which intelligent lizards from some galaxy afar attempt to invade earth during that conflict, and succeed only in becoming one of the several combatants and slicing off a portion of earth for their own. Delightful stuff, though like most sci/fi writers in my experience, the author is slightly weak on dialogue.

What's most fascinating about these lizards is their conservatism. The guiding principle of their civilization is that any change that is perceptible in a single lizard's lifetime is a rate of change that has gotten out of hand!

The lizards' alarm at the very opposite behavior of human societies gave me a view I'd never had before of human nature. Hm. Well of White human nature at least, come to think of it. (I was younger when I read these).

#17 Harumphty Dumpty | 2011-12-12 17:34

"I really like historical fiction."

Bob, if you care to say, I'd be very interested to know some books of that kind you've especially liked.

#18 shari | 2011-12-12 19:29

Thank you Harumphty. I do remember seeing such a quote attributed to Churchill. He was good with words.

Yesterday, I was out for my usual walk when a half grown golden retriever flew across the street and knocked me down from behind. It then kept wiggling and jumping all over me until I could get ahold of it's collar and get up. That's what made me think of that metaphor. That and Horus's recent podcast on ww111. I think that soon there are going to be those who can no longer keep their heads where they can't see.

#19 Harumphty Dumpty | 2011-12-12 19:52

@BGLass: I enjoyed a lot reading and thinking about your posts on this thread about "living in the image."

<i>Grownups and other heroes choose Life in the Image.

Sin causes people to live in the Big Lie, in the Images, etc....Ego, various weaknesses, need to be accepted, cowardliness, fear of harm, poverty, etc, etc.

For many, nothing more uncomfortable than really being looked at, or asked followup questions...

The whole question of "adulthood" in a sense is HOW REAL have you managed to be?</i>

Accepting that we can all be jerks or worse from time to time (well, at least everyone I know and myself), while still feeling good about ourselves without adopting an unreal image to blot out the jerkiness...it's a challenge to human nature!

#20 Harumphty Dumpty | 2011-12-12 19:57

"So it makes very little difference whether the generation that lived it is alive or dead, because they will believe everything everybody else believes."

We humans are built to follow the crowd. Except for the few who, if the rest of us are lucky, will be our leaders.

#21 BGLass | 2011-12-13 11:27

Just lost a really long post, lol.

I get the innocence thing now, Genseric. But do believe in life outside the Image.

The Historical Basis for one's reality is a different way of framing who you are and what life is. It is like knowing you are part of a Great Historical Saga (just like in a book).

Family Values (quote-unquote) make a joke out of republicans. The people who go on s/a that are THE FIRST to quickly warehouse their elderly parents, and help create a life style where others WILL BE FORCED, basically, to warehouse elderly parents or idiot children or whatever. "Family Values" means you want money for your own family, and hope not to get a divorce, LOL&lt; LOL!!!

Idk about that. All I know: I HAVE a family and it dates back TO THE DAWN OF TIME whether I know all the specs or not.

Ensuring that we do not know the specifics of our Real Family Saga, that is just like a novel, is highly suspect.

What kind of Elites would not want us going on about that, just as we apparently used to do, gathered around our fires, boasting of our exploits? (At least we used to do this in stories that still exist from earlier times).

Family Values is not anything like the command to honor your parents (i.e.: the historical reality of ancestry and the exploits of it through time.)

A lot of the Bible itself, actually, is just long boring lists of ancestors. Even if you don&#039;t&#039; know the whole list, you CAN ASSUME that it exists. You ARE a person in that way, whether you know all the specs or not.

Met a person who knew nothing about their own history, but the prejudices they carried cracked me up, in that only a certain ethnicity would have said some of the things they did, but they did not know it about themselves.

Anyway, the point is: The historical view of yourself as a person, is a different way of framing what you are, imo, other than roles and images.

#22 BGLass | 2011-12-13 11:29

The truth shall set you free--- just not immediately.

I like that. Guess God really did not say in what time frame.

#23 The Old Man of the Mountain | 2011-12-13 15:14

Some history that I remember is that I was in different school districts in different states for different years of grade school, but some statements were made by "teachers" in all of them, such as: "We are all Heinz 57's and we are all part Indian". As if we were supposed to pretend we were part of the brown masses and assimilate White Folks out of existence.

I ain't part Indian!