THE ROBERT W. WHITAKER ARCHIVE

I AGREE WITH MIKE AND HS ON CHRIST'S | 2005-06-15

If you look at the comments on the article below, "This 'God is Sort of a Spirit' Thing Mystifies Me," you will find what I see as an unusual note of agreement. If HS or Mike do not agree, they will definitely say so.

I will not include their comments here because I would like readers to get used to reading the comments themselves.

Here is how I summed up what we agree on:

Theologians write millions of words -- literally -- about who they, meaning Christ -- feel

like forgiving.

Christ died for our sins. He forgave those who did not know what they were doing. This

means it takes a positive effort to AVOID being part of His sacrifice.

Jesus also said, "and forgive us our trespasses AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US."

What Jesus said was that He made the one sacrifice that will ever matter for every person

who is not positively bad, not just for those who read the Old Testament right.

As I say, I will fight for the right of a person to stand in the church door and demand a

correct theology. In fact, as a Wordsmith myself, I kind of admire the theologians' ability

to make what Christ repeatedly said into a paying institution and hundreds of millions

of words.

St. Paul said, "We must be all things to all men." That was simple enough: We Christians go to THEM, we don't sit inthe chrch door waiting to examine them when they come to us.

To avoid Christ's sacrifice, you have to positively evil: "For God so loved THE WORLD that he gave his only begotten Son..."

That doesn't sound like a God who is champing at the bit to damn almost everybody.

"Forgive them for they know now what they do." That is enough to be part of Christ's sacrifice. He said so.

"Forgive us our trespasses" not because we satisfy some theologian, but "as we forgive those who trespass against us."

How do you make that complicated?

I would hate to face the Judgment in the shoes of a theologian.

I cannot imagine anything more evil or more a rejection of Christ's sacrifice than standing in the church door turning people away.

COMMENTS (3)

#1 Elizabeth | 2005-06-15 19:01

"The Harrowing of Hell," Christ's rescue of the good who had never heard of Him, has been traced to an Anglo-Saxon origin. This is what I was told in a Medieval literature class many years ago.

Christ crucified -- not the clothed, triumphant image seen in some Medieval art -- shows up first in Germany, before the year 1003. This is according to Gardner's History of Art. This was the text for an art history course I took in 1974. The text is still around, but it may have been amended to adhere to Political Correctness.

Christ as an infant born to two real people in a real stable first shows up in northern Italy, as part of St. Francis' campaign (for lack of a better term) to give the faithful a closer connection to Christ. This was in about the year 1200, in the first Christmas pageant.

#2 Robert Reis | 2005-06-15 23:47

Dear Bob,

I suggest you reconsider the use of the "Father, forgive them" statement

It is agreed by all non-delusional scholars that this sentence is an interpolation.

5 [34] [Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do."]: this portion of Luke 23:34 does not occur in the oldest papyrus manuscript of Luke and in other early Greek manuscripts and ancient versions of wide geographical distribution.

Cheers,

Robert

#3 Robert Reis | 2005-06-16 00:13

MORE CITATIONS:

http://faith.propadeutic.com/analysis2.html

Luke 23:34 - One of the most treasured statements of Jesus is His first saying on the cross: Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing. This statement is absent in the relevant ancient papyrus, the best Alexandrian, Western, and Caesarean manuscripts, and part of the Syriac tradition, and it seems to have originated in the Western text.

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke23.htm

34

[Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do."] 5

5 [34] [Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do."]: this portion of Luke 23:34 does not occur in the oldest papyrus manuscript of Luke and in other early Greek manuscripts and ancient versions of wide geographical distribution.

http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Luke%2023:26-56

Luke 23:34 Some early manuscripts do not have this sentence.

http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Luke+23

2] 23:34 Some manuscripts omit the sentence And Jesus . . . what they do

http://www.tniv.info/bible/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Luke%2023&tniv=yes

Luke 23:34 Some early manuscripts do not have this sentence.